Successful by Design, with Larissa Murphy
Updated: Feb 28
Karen: Today on Success from Anywhere we'll explore the contrast between constraints and choices, efficiency and enjoyment, metrics and meaning. Please welcome to the show our first-ever Vision Creator and the founder of Contrast Design Larissa Murphy all the way from Singapore.
Larissa: Thank you Karen it's great to be here. Really fantastic to speak to.
Karen: Well, one question I like to start the conversation with every guest is what was your first paying job? What did that job teach you about the world of work?
Larissa: My first paying job was in a bar when I was a student. It taught me a lot about people and interactions between people and how people relate to each other, how people communicate with each other. Obviously in a very social setting with groups how people interact, how people can reach out to include new people in groups, and so on. It's a very interesting place to work and you get to talk to a lot of different characters people would come in, especially on the afternoon shifts and sit at the bar alone and you know just want to chat and you'd hear about their lives and backgrounds, so it taught me a lot about people.
Karen: How do you read a room? I mean people listening or doing this all the time, you go into the high-stakes meeting and they're doing a version of what happens to you when you walk up to a table. How do you read a room or a group of people?
Larissa: It's partly Instinct, and I think maybe that's good too and the bar job helps me. Because you have to be able to read people, especially in a bar in the north of England where it's not always polite people and you have to be able to anticipate if there's going to be problems or trouble or the mood is changing… So, it really did teach me some great people skills. So when I'm in meetings and stuff I can manage to speak and present but also observe simultaneously and ensure that people are engaged and I think that's very important.
Karen: That early job of reading the room and working in a restaurant. Now you have, I think, the coolest title I've seen in a long time. You're my first Vision Creator what is that and how does one become a Vision Creator?
Larissa: This is a really interesting story, so I started life as an architect, and I work as a designer and specifically work in the workplace. Over the years I've done a lot of research and study about creativity because it's something that interests me. Through the hiring process of recruiting people and trying to find the right talent and trying to be able to determine who is creative and who isn't and how to spot it, like how to read the room but how to read creativity. So when we were discussing internally, when we set up the company initially, me and my business partner Ivy decided that although legally we're directors of the company as all business owners. We said director kind of implies that you dictating to people, you're directing people and you're telling them what to do and how to do it and controlling everything and that's not the environment we wanted to create. When we work in a very collaborative fashion, so we said we don't really direct. What we do is we take on board everyone's information, and we create so initially when we found Contrast we were both co-creators. As our business has evolved, we've realized that our skill sets are very different: I'm really at the front end of things, I'm the one doing all the research formulating the vision coming up with the creative ideas, and so I'm really the Vision Creator. That's how that title came about. Ivy's role is very different from mine. Now as we've evolved and so her title is also Creator, but she's the Reality Creator. Because she gets things done. I have the vision she makes them real.
Karen: It is a winning partnership by who has complementary strengths and what you said got me thinking about what would happen if we all changed our titles to what we create.
I'm curious you talked about tapping into creativity, and I'll hear people saying I'm sure you do too: I'm not the creative type is that true? Is there such a thing as just the creative type and not the creative type? Can we all be the creator?
Larissa: I think in Psychology terms yes as we're all born with creativity and what the research has shown is that children under the age of 5, 95% of them can achieve genius-level creativity. By the time we hit our early-mid 20s, only 3 %of the adult population can achieve genius-level creativity. So something happens between being under 5 and being 25 to remove it from most of it. I think it's society’s conditioning partially… A lot of studies suggest that education systems and so on and but I think it's also part of your innate personality. To be able to resist the temptation to conform to, the desire to conform to fit in or to blend in. I think people who have that kind of people-pleasing mode probably lose their creativity faster because they want to adapt, they want to become acceptable in society. Whereas people who tend to not care about others or maybe have bad social skills tend to be able to hang on to their creativity a little bit longer. Because they simply don't care whether this thing or they don't feel that pressure to conform or be normal or be accepted.
Karen: When you're talking about creativity it also makes me think about Innovation, and right now we hear leaders in organizations of all sizes talking about the need to create new choices or innovate into the future of work. How do you help leaders and individuals within the organization access their creativity in new ways? I mean how do we get unblocked?
Larissa: It is quite challenging, and I've done a lot of work on the psychology front. Actually I work with one of the guest lectures at one of the universities here on an organizational psychology course. It's really interesting to get the feedback of the students and the kind of younger generation coming into the workforce: About how we can engage on that level and how we can make sure that the next generation of employees are going to have more creative skills, more ability to innovate, to adapt, to change faster when you work with existing organizations. I did a project last year in India a couple of years ago. They were a creative agency but all the senior management there had been with the company for 30 years, so the diversity of their experience was non-existent. I think that informs creativity a lot: You need a lot of very different sources of information and so on. So it was really a challenge to get them to think beyond what they had now when it came to the workplace and how the future might look for the workplace. They were very resistant to change but through a series of workshops, I always find that it's best for people to have these realizations for themselves rather than for us to go in there and dictate. So we tend to run a series of workshops with the leadership initially to understand what their ideas are and what their visions are we get them to play some silly games that sometimes they feel a bit uncomfortable about, but eventually they kind of break it down and get involved. Then we run a different set of engagement sessions with employees. We bring the two together. Very often what the senior people think is very remote from what the people on the ground think and they have a completely different comparison. This is really an eye-opener from them because you've got a bunch of young recruits who've come on board in the company and this is their impression. You've got the people who've been there 25, 30 years who think everything is wonderful because it's their baby and this is how it's always been and they don't want anything to change. Then suddenly they start to wake up and think gosh we really have to change we have to do things differently we have to get with the program and speed up our own adaptation. That can be a really positive step in a kind of transformation and transition to looking at the workplace and doing something new. But none of it happens without that level of engagement with people at all levels. You can't just go talk to the CEO or the MD and say what's your vision for the workplace so let's get creative let's workshop with you. It just fails miserably. You have to have the data coming from so many different sources to be able to pull it all together and then feed it back to them to make them really think and to push them out of their comfort zone too.
Karen: You're highlighting two very practical ways to access greater creativity and it sounds like the first practical step every person can take to access or at least have some inputs to greater creativity is to have the broadest and most diverse set of experiences possible. try different things and be exposed to different people. The second one you hit there is critical which is listening. You're talking about listening as a strategy to create choices and close gaps between what employers are willing to offer and see as the vision and what employees expect and sometimes those are very different. Tell us more because this is the crux of the conversation in so many ways about the future of the office and the workplace: What are some questions that leaders need to be asking right now of their employees and deeply listening to the answers to guide this creativity and construct a different kind of workplace?
Larissa: I think the fundamental thing is people feel betters, so they perform better more productive when they have a certain degree of control over themselves. I think the pandemic has really highlighted that when we all started working from home people took back control over their lives: they worked when they wanted, they took care of their family when they wanted. They juggled it all but on their own terms because they were doing everything from home. Many people thought that gave them a sense of control back over their lives. I think that element of I'm an individual and I should have control over my own environment over how I want to work and where I want to work and what's right for me. Rather than the standardization of you come to the office, you will get a desk, you will get a chair, it will be the same as everybody else's and you will be in uniform and standardized that's never going to get the best out of people. What's going to change the fundamental thing that's got to change is we've really got to think about employees. Instead of thinking about them as one homogeneous group of employees where we collect data and the law of averages rule but the interesting thing about the law of averages is nobody's average. There's people that either extremes which make the average but nobody is at that average. So build for that and you're going wrong. You have to respect that everyone is an individual and you have to take all those individual viewpoints and pull them together. As a leader it's very important that leadership is visible they reach out, they engage, they don't dissociate and sit back and expect everything to be wonderful or expect everyone to agree with their vision. Also one of the big things that is different over the last 10, 20 years we've seen workplace transformation. We've seen many things happen that are kind of counter-intuitive and counter-productive. So we see the big tech organizations where they and it started with banking they used to do it back in the kind of 90s. Where they provide everything, an employee could possibly need in the workplace. So the employee never has to leave. I remember designing a trading floor back in London many years ago. Their big panic was that if traders left the building they may not come back or they may be downtime and they would lose large sums of money. So the idea was keeping them captive, keeping them there as long as possible. If they needed to leave their desk for anything go to for dentist’s, doctor's appointment it was all provided on site. So they never had to leave the building and it maximized time. The problem with that is it also limits their ability to interact with others. Other than the people who work with who do the same thing and then you get into this silo mentality. Unfortunately, I think the whole concept of like the Google office or the tech company office where breakfast is provided, lunch is provided dinner is provided so you don't go out for dinner with a diverse range of people. You sit in the office and have dinner with the people you work with all day. You're not getting that really divergent source of information that all feeds into creativity. That is the wrong direction that workplaces need to go and it's fine to have friends at work but we need to expand our social circles too.
Karen: You're busting a myth I mean this is a very popular myth: what's positioned as convenience is really at its core a strategy that keeps people captive and constrains their creativity.
Larissa: It is and it's linked. You look at anybody who's really ingenious and really creative they will tell you that their creativity stemmed from the fact that they failed, they struggled, they tried multiple things, multiple different ways, different business ideas, different work streams. They will have reached out and have a broad spectrum of experience. There's also studies that show that people with higher level creativity have a more expensive social network which is more diverse than people who don't. These things are important. Many organizations just don't realize that because they're looking at the economy of getting people. If you offer people breakfast they'll come in for breakfast, they'll be in the office longer, so they'll be more productive, maybe you'll get more errors out of them. Whether that comes to more productivity, I don't know. Anyway, productivity is not really that relevant anymore, a computer or a piece of technology is more productive than a human being we cannot beat them. We are not as efficient. So what really sets us apart in the future what we need like most business leaders are talking about is the ability to create, to ideate, to innovate.
Karen: You were talking about the individual and not designing or resisting the urge to design to the average. You said you know people are not average individuals. Some would tell you it's impossible to design for the needs and wants of all the individuals inside of an organization. What would you say to them? I mean can you make the impossible individual’s scope scrap?
Larissa: You can never please all of the people all of the time. That is impossible you can never design for absolutely everybody's every single whim. What you can do is incorporate enough variety enough choice and enough flexibility to allow people to choose. Then if you create working environments where people say: well I want to sit here because I like this environment or I like a low lighting level and I don't need 500 looks to get my work done because I'm 20 and my eyes function really well. Where someone else over there says well I'm 55 and I need super bright light because my eyes are not so great anymore. Because these things are natural phenomena. Our eyes need more light as we age so even just light levels having standardized light levels across all workplaces is crazy. Because it doesn't suit everybody. You just need to create variety and pockets of different lighting levels it's the same with everything else. If there's enough variety and people have the freedom to choose been great and you may have to adapt and work because some things may be popular and oversubscribed in other areas may be dead. There's no formula as to how to get it right. I've worked for years working on the mathematical side of things, working on ratios of how many meeting seats you need per employee if we're going to agile or hybrid working where people have the flexibility to work from home some days. What is the number of desks we need to provide all these metrics. I have discovered having spent years doing spreadsheets calculating them are essentially good for a basis, but you have to balance them with human perception: what engagement and what people say and what people believe. If you tell somebody: we're cutting desks because you only use your desk 60% of the time or there's never more than 60% people in so we could cut 40% of desks. But people say I come to my desk every day. Even if you can prove and we have data and we've been through this exercise and you can prove to them actually look, I have the data for your desk and it's only occupied 40% of the time. They'll say no the data is wrong and the sensor wasn't working. You can't alter their perception you can maybe move them 10%, 15%, 20%, but you won't get them 100% of the way and I think that's the balancing act that we have to do. We have to balance humanity, human perception, the individual concept of their world versus the data and that technology allows us to pull in, and it's a fun job.
Karen: You talk about the metrics, and we've all heard these phrases like what's inspected is respected and you need to be able to measure some kind of return on what you're doing. What are better metrics that leaders could be using to measure a successful office now? What employee engagement means now are there better metrics?
Larissa: There are better metrics generally. I think measuring people's satisfaction levels but the thing is nobody measures these things because they're hard to measure. Everyone can measure the air quality because you can bring in a device to measure it and then say look we're a great employer because we make sure your air quality is really good and we measure it. You can measure things like electricity consumption and we're really good to the environment because we've driven down... But measuring things like human happiness or human satisfaction these are more challenging but there are our ways and means to do it through observational studies of patterns or utilization, which is what we often use. Because we can often balance and a huge process of engagement. I worked for a very large client here with 800 staff in an office building and the engagement process we spoke to 500 of those staff actually physically face to face. That's the kind of level of engagement we're talking about. We didn't do it all one-to-one obviously there were workshops and so on. But that huge amount of data from people's perception then can be balanced against the data you get from the sensors and then you can start measuring what people like what people don't like, how their behaviours suggest something different to what they might tell you. Because you can actually through utilization studies and we use infrared technology we have a partner company here in Singapore where we use infrared sensors and heat sensor so we can see how people move around the office. We can't track individuals there's no privacy infringement, but we can see where groups cluster, where people move apart, where people work in isolation, so we can see all these patterns and we can see what the proportions are of how people are working and how they like to work. We can then balance that with what they tell us, so it's a balancing act it's about striking that balance.
Karen: Let's say someone listening decides to undertake a space study they decide to get curious about when and where do people gather or isolate and then they decide to use that data to get more curious. What are three great questions any leader or organization could ask employees and teams as a follow-up to that observational data about how the space gets used?
Larissa: We use some interesting questions that we always work in our workshop. So one of the questions we ask people is where do you have your best ideas? It's a great question because then the differences you get in different companies in different cultures. I've run a lot of these workshops in India and a lot of them in Singapore and the cultural differences are kind of interesting. In India, I would say 70% of the responses are in some form of mode of transport on the bus, on the train, in the car and that's because the traffic is so bad in India people spend a lot of time there but it's a lot of time just sitting so that's the time when their mind is free to have ideas. In Singapore, people will tell you wherever I can plug out, wherever I can distance myself… A common one is anywhere where I'm not when I'm not working usually the idea pops into my head. So that's a really great question for you to ask. Where do you have your best ideas because then that will help determine what kind of environment are inspiring people or what kind of situation is inspiring people. Like in India, it's the people sitting in their cars stuck in traffic their mind can wander and they can daydream and that facilitates their best ideas. So that's a really good question to ask people. The other thing leaders can do is to understand fully the expense of individuals you ask people what time of the day are you most productive? Is it morning? Is it evening? Is it last thing at night before you go to bed? We use this a lot when we work with organizations where the leaders are very traditional and very attached to a nine-to-five or nine-to-six office environment and the concept that people work different hours and like. Once they start realizing wow look 70% of my staff have their best ideas first thing in the morning or last thing before they go to sleep, gosh it's not while they're in the office. So it's like well should we start considering nap pots? so should people be allowed to go to sleep during the day and then maybe while they're chilling out relaxing just about to fall asleep they'll have those ideas when they're at the office and then they can work on them. So these are kind of questions that you don't necessarily think people are going to ask when you're talking about workplace but it really is about where people have good ideas? Where people feel most comfortable? Where do you feel most comfortable in your life? if you had a choice to work anywhere in the world where would you pick.
Karen: Once people get the answers to these questions, I mean one of my favorite quotes is don't let your learning lead to knowledge, let your learning lead to action. So once we have studied this space and how people use it and asked your three very insightful questions: Where do you get your best ideas? When do you get your best ideas and what's your ideal work environment if there were no constraints? How do you build an action plan I mean where do you go from there so that that information ultimately leads to impact?
Larissa: We do a whole piece on strategy, so we gather all the information, and we gather all the data that we gather both from human engagement and also from other data streams if they're available to us and then we compile. We do a lot of calculations. Unfortunately there are still a lot of calculations involved so that we can work out what kind of environments we need… The difference about these calculations are they're not rules of thumb, they are not ratios that you input the data and it's the same ratio one size fits all. It's very much bespoke to each organization and it will mean that the ratio of spaces we provide and the types of spaces we provide will be very different from organization to organization. We've just done a workspace where it's maybe 40% of the space is social space and it's all different kinds of social space but the actual focus space is then very much focused. So it's a very distinctive office because the two are very separate but that's because that's what the employees told us. They need somewhere where they can go and focus. But ultimately it is a very social organization and they all like to hang out. So it's striving to get that balance in the space as well. There's a whole piece that we have to do to gather the information to analyze it all then work out the numbers and to go back and say we think this will work. We also as part of that engagement we still like to involve people in the process. Because if you come back at the end and say what you told us that was this right at the beginning and now we've gone and done all this and we've analyzed it we're the experts and this is what you're getting. They'll go: I don't agree, I don't think that's going to work… So what we do is we have these constant workshops where once we've got the data, once we've gotten our initial ideas, we feed them back and say how does this feel? Does this sit comfortably with you? Does it not? We have lots of games we play in these workshops: image games and things like that help us gather information through observation as well about how people interact with each other.
Karen: Resistance is real. I mean it's resistance to change, it's resistance to letting go of the nostalgia of how we've always done things it's the resistance to coming back to the office. How do you help people work through resistance?
Larissa: The thing that human beings are experts at more than anything else is our ability to adapt and change. The problem is that we don't recognize that as one of our strongest abilities. So what you have to do is get people to understand just how much in a very short period of time they've adapted and they've changed: how their lives have changed and what has improved and what's disimproved? It gives them the sense that they can take control over it. We often talk about: think about how you worked five years ago? You described to me how you used to work five years ago now. What in the world around you has changed in that five years and how has it impacted you? How you work now then once they look back and they think oh my God five years ago we didn't really use mobile technology, we had big desktops sitting in our office and so on. We had to be connected to a server. We didn't have cloud technology and suddenly the whole world changed. The whole world has changed in that period of time and have you survived? Has it been detrimental to you in anyway? Then they kind of think no not really… we've and that's what human being always do we constantly adapt. So I think we need to get over this fear. Actually about the pandemic I'm actually quite positive you see a lot of kind of doom and gloom mongers about pandemic. I think the pandemic has been fantastic for humanity. It has the deaths and the illness side of things aside and I know many people lost loved ones and that's very tragic but for us to move forward, it has been a huge accelerator. The workshops I used to run before the pandemic to help people understand what was changing and why it was changing and getting them on board to understand how they themselves could adapt and change were sometimes quite hard work. The same group of people of same company during post-pandemic it's like overnight we all had to go working from home and everything changed and we've all survived it so sure we're open to doing things differently, open to changing what comes next, it could be fun and there's been the pandemic has really inspired our sense of interest in the future. Rather than we were in a rut of looking with a lot of nostalgia at the past. There's a whole era maybe the last decade where we were really focused on the past and the pandemic has really shifted our focus back to the future and give people the confidence that they can adapt. It's about the confidence that we can adapt and we can change the fear only comes out of lack of confidence.
Karen: One of the design principles you talk about quite frequently is design for a physical future. What is Phygital? What does that mean and why does it matter and how do we design for a Phygital future?
Larissa: It struck me as part of the pandemic because working from home like everyone else most of our interaction became digital so we would spend half our days joining calls and meetings and we would use various different systems. For example, we would use Zoom or Microsoft teams or Google meet or many other systems those being the main ones. What interested me was that pre-pandemic if I went to a meet with a client in their office. Walking into their office created a certain experience about their brand, their identity, who they are, and sitting in their meeting room give me a feeling of what this organization is like. When you join one of these online meetings you don't get that experience. You get the Microsoft, Google and Zoom experience you don't get to experience the company you're interacting with. There's a massive disconnect when we think about the workplace. When we think about workplace, we think we create a physical space but you can also create a digital space and what we have to do is melt the two together. We can take inspiration from the retail world because they've done it very well back in the old days, everyone had a physical store and the only way to go shopping was to go to the physical store and you may choose the store because you like the ambiance and environment and it was a nice place to shop: different image different people like different things. As we transitioned to online shop companies spend a lot of time and effort curating their online retail experience so that it's aligned with their physical stores. So there's that unity when you're in an Apple store or Apple's online store. But workplaces we're not doing that they're still separate: there's a physical space and then there's this kind of digital space that's created by a third party service provider and has nothing to do with who we are or our identity or what we're about so. For me, the phygital space is we need to start thinking more holistically about the workplace. We need to stop thinking about it as a physical space with digital technology that helps it survive and work. We need to think about it as a physical space and a digital space and both should come together to create the same experience and that's phygital.
Karen: I like your design principle of if you feel stuck or you don't know where to get started look in the direction of retail that's a lived experience we all share of the transformation of an in-store experience extending to a digital experience, extending to a customer experience that overall forms your perception of a brand. How you choose to interact you know at one point, you may choose to still go to a physical store, at another point in your journey you may choose to interact digitally and at the end of the day you can still be loyal to that brand? What I'm hearing you say is really the same true of employers right you can still be a brand or a workplace of choice and offer the flexibility and autonomy your employees need to do their best work and tap into their own creativity from anywhere.
Larissa: Exactly that yes.
Karen: Changing channels people talk about the challenge of not having this break room this water cooler experience. So I like to do a segment in the podcast called take five so imagine we're gonna take five and now to tap into our own creativity. I've got five quick questions for you that will work a little bit like lightning round so just say the first answer that comes to mind for you are you ready Larissa?
Larissa: I'm ready.
Karen: All right first when you were a kid what did you want to be when you grew up?
Larissa: An architect.
Karen: Oh you are living your childhood dream that's fantastic I know that's so rare and good for you and I'm a little jealous.
Larissa: I think from by the age of five that was the only thing I wanted to do. I used to help my dad build walls with concrete and had my own wheelbarrow. I used to dream and draw buildings and new ways to create buildings as a child.
Karen: Proof that you can live your dream even your childhood dream. I love that. what is your favorite guilty pleasure office snack?
Larissa: My favorite guilty pleasure of a snack has to be cheesecake for breakfast. Anything with raspberry and white chocolate cheesecake for breakfast that's really. Everyone in my office laughs when they're like how she eats cheesecake for breakfast but I do I love it.
Karen: Good for you. What's the best excuse you've ever heard or given for completely missing a meeting?
Larissa: Not completely missing it and turning up in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was pretty embarrassing. I think I put it down to the fact that I was distracted by daydreaming. I told the client that this would be to their benefit in the long term.
Karen: I am going to use that, and I encourage the listeners to do the same I delayed due to daydreaming. I'm tapping into my creativity. I'm technically doing work I was actually working. What do you keep on your desk that inspires you?
Larissa: Nothing. I don't find inspiration in physical objects. I find inspiration in my mind. For me, a blank, an empty desk, a clean sheet of paper and a pencil, so I can just doodle what's in my imagination that's where I get my inspiration.
Karen: We've all used that phrase right like let's imagine starting with a blank slate or a clean sheet. You literally do that for inspiration which I think is a great tip I mean it reminds us there's infinite possibilities.
Larissa: It's true when I was at university, I had a nice lecturer who once told me that while we were there, we had pencil and paper and anything was possible. When you get into the real world, it's not so easy and to exploit this opportunity. I don't agree that it's not so easy in the real world I think if you try hard enough, if you believe enough, if you want something badly enough, anything is still possible and if you have that kind of childish wonder and excitement about all the endless possibilities and never allow people to tell you it's too difficult or it's impossible then that feels and creativity and it's very inspiring.
Karen: To whom are you most grateful for investing in your career?
Larissa: I would have to say my parents because I guess they allowed me the freedom to be myself and encouraged it and never forced me to take any path or do anything I didn't want to do, which was a very brave type of parenting for their generation. It could have gone horribly wrong but they got lucky. Maybe also my business partner because I think she gave me the confidence and having like we said at the start, having somebody that is the complete opposite but opposite to you but with a similar goal in life so that you have that really complementary skill set it kind of gives you all the bits of view that you're missing and the confidence that you can be kind of whole. So I really owe a lot to her because she's kind of made me so much better at who I am and what I do and every day I work with her and every day I'm so grateful for the fact that she still puts up with me.
Karen: You are literally living your childhood dream and I took away, and I know our listeners also have many practical and insightful tips from our conversation today. Creativity starts with getting curious, and asking some new questions and I loved the three questions you shared about: Where do your ideas come from? Where physically are you? When they happen or in what circumstances do you get your best ideas and if you could work from any kind of setting? Where would you be at your best? You really reminded us about the link between constraints and choices and creativity and choices, and I love your thought but even if you got up and sat in one part of a physical office and stood in another part of a physical office even that would help you tap into your own creativity. I would like to ask you one closing question: When you think about the future of the office and what's your biggest aspiration for how you will contribute to the future of work?
Larissa: We will completely transform workplaces beyond recognition. It's like you mentioned my favorite thing is we have to get rid of the soulless environment that people don't want to spend time in. If I can help create workspaces that people compliment us on and say because of this workspace I love coming to the office…that's all I need to achieve. I've done a couple where I've had people come up to me and say we really love the space now it's so much better we enjoy it. When people say they enjoy it, I think this is a positive workplace that people enjoy going to somewhere they want to be, and the clients we work with are generally clients that have those aspirations and want to create good environments for people. That's really my passion. Just creating better environments for people.
Karen: Creating better environments may begin as soon as changing your own title at least mentally to whatever it is you're going to create. Maybe I'm a podcast creator I have no idea now I have to take it away. But thank you to you Larissa Murphy the vision Creator from Contrast Design for joining me today on Success From Anywhere because success is not a destination or a location success is available to anyone anywhere at any time.