Karen Mangia
Today on Success from Anywhere, we'll meet the social entrepreneur and John Lewis Fellow for Civil and Human Rights who continues to march toward 1 million job opportunities. A founder who is changing the workforce pipeline, one internship, and one apprenticeship at a time, with the help of technology. Please join me in welcoming Ahva Sadeghi, co-founder and CEO of Symba.
Avha Sadeghi
Hi Karen, thank you so much for having me and thank you for that warm intro. Excited to be here!
Karen Mangia
I could have spent the entire interview just introducing you. You've had a fascinating background. First and foremost, say more about the John Lewis fellowship opportunity?
Ahva Sadeghi
That was such a profound experience and opportunity. I had just finished my graduate studies in London, where I was studying economics and human rights, and I got accepted to this fellowship. They had brought in 20 fellows from around the world; I was actually one of a few representing the United States. During the fellowship, each student had to come up with an action project: how do we address civil and human rights in our own respective countries? It was so fascinating to learn from students in Australia, in Holland, talking about their own countries and coming up with solutions. I was the first one who came up with a for profit company as an action project. So, that was kind of my twist on the whole experience.
It was so profound. Late Congressman John Lewis is an absolute icon. And really, what's good in this world about being on this quest for good trouble. It was an incredible honor.
Karen Mangia
And congratulations to you on creating a for profit business. Money helps solve a multitude of challenges, as we all know. Because this is a blog where we talk a lot about work and the future of work, I like to ask each guest, what was your first paid job and how did that job inform or inspire your career trajectory?
Ahva Sadeghi
My first paid job was as a server, I worked in the service industry. I think that it has been so powerful for shaping my entire career trajectory because it's taught me how to take on a lot, manage so many different relationships, be a team player working with bussers in the kitchen, and having a positive attitude through it all. It was a great experience.
Karen Mangia
What I'm hearing already is your theme about being of service—working in the hospitality industry, working through the fellowship program, and the work you're doing now. Tell us more about Symba and what inspired you to create this business?
Ahva Sadeghi
My startup journey building Symba is a little different because I never thought in a million years that I would be a startup founder. I was passionate about economics, I thought I would go on to be a diplomat. (I had dreamed from a young age about wanting to work at the UN). When I was in college in Tucson, Arizona, I was one of the first remote interns at the US Department of State. This was over a decade ago. That experience was transformative because a young student in Tucson, Arizona, now had the State Department in DC on her resume. It opened up access in a whole new way, and I started doing more and more remote internships. So, well over a decade ago, I became excited about how work is changing, and I kept sharing this insight with my friends.
Then, my action project that I worked on with late Congressman John Lewis paired students with opportunities remotely and built a whole platform and experience to scale these initiatives.
We started Symba 2017. It was challenging because people said remote internships would never happen. Stop trying to make it happen. And then all of a sudden, in 2020, we were the only solution in the market. We really took off and tried to be a solution during a challenging time.
Karen Mangia
You were ahead of your time—visionary, one of the great characteristics of startup founders. You and I first met when I wrote an article about you for Authority Magazine and you said something that has stuck with me to this moment, which is: A paid internship or apprenticeship is a luxury. Tell us more.
Ahva Sadeghi
It's interesting. I think that we probably did that four or five years ago, almost. Because now it's not a luxury. It's a right. And I think that, from that perspective, I probably said that because I had done six unpaid internships. So, I had felt like that was a luxury because it was something that was unattainable to me. But it's not a luxury, nor should it ever be a luxury that you are working for anyone for free. That is just, first of all, illegal. Also, you have no protections. If you're not actually paid, you don't even have the HR support around you. I would change that up. As I've gotten more into this field, we launched the paid internship pledge to bring corporations to end unpaid internships. 40% of internships are still unpaid today.
Karen Mangia
You're sharing eye opening statistics: 40% of internships are still unpaid. When we think about the implication of that, it means you're limiting your own talent pool because only so many people can afford to work for free. What shows up for me is how much that limits opportunity for a diverse pipeline of candidates.
Ahva Sadeghi
Absolutely. There's so many factors that play into it, as far as ensuring that the candidate is already set up to be on payroll, right, if this is supposed to lead to an actual full time opportunity. Also, if you're relying on the candidate for great work and deliverables, there should be some formal exchange. But to this point of diversity, equity, and inclusion, that's where we really champion our mission around opening up the workforce, because in order to really create change from the C suite and on, it starts at the entry point. How do we ensure everybody has an equal shot at the starting line? That everyone is set up for success?
Karen Mangia
That is a powerful call to action, the internship pledge and the call out to leaders, because we see so many leaders stand up and talk about the importance of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion & Belonging (DEIB), and have initiatives and targets and speak about this publicly. And yet, if we're putting a tax on the front end that says, “In order to be a part of our diverse workforce, you must be willing to work for free,” you limit your options by choice.
Ahva Sadeghi
When we talk about systemic challenges and obstacles that people are facing, these are some of those examples of that. These are things that we need to be more cautious, intentional and thoughtful about. I called a paid internship a luxury; I can't believe I said that. But I'm here as a leader saying the more I learn and experience, I understand things change. It's important as I become educated to make those changes.
Karen Mangia
Your comments remind me of my university job working for a professor as a research assistant. He had a contract to do research each year with the Radio Television Digital News Association (RTNDA), and he would publish trends based on a survey. My job was to call and follow up on the non-respondents and also do some work with him about what the data meant. I was fortunate that, once a year, I got to have a byline with him. The topic of our shared research article each year was about the number of internships that were paid versus not paid in radio and television. And, I’m sad to say, I don’t think that much has changed since the period of time where we were doing that research. What is it going to take for us to change this mindset of expecting people to work for free?
Ahva Sadeghi
I think it should be illegal. It actually should be illegal. If you think of any other transaction, when would it be okay to work for free? I think that that might be what it takes, making it illegal. An academic credit is great, but what about the future where we're not necessarily encouraging everyone to go to a four year degree? You accumulate so much debt and then maybe you're working the rest of your life to pay off that debt.
How are we creating systems that enable the next generation of talent to be successful and also require employers to pay their interns? As a startup founder myself, I have taken on a lot of HR practices, inherently in the work that I do, and I'm very cautious about things that are illegal. I'm like, “That's black and white, we cannot do that.” So, I think that maybe there might need to be some actual legal ramifications here.
Karen Mangia
Tell us more about Symba’s offerings. How are you solving this challenge of a more diverse talent pipeline? And how do you partner with organizations?
Ahva Sadeghi
When we first started building Symba, we thought we would be a marketplace. It's obvious: we’ll take really brilliant students, match them with cool companies, and everybody will be happy. When we started doing our research, we sat down with around 120 talent leaders from nonprofits to Fortune 100 companies. We asked them about remote internships. First, they laughed at us and then they said it would be impossible. And we asked: Why is that? The answer was that they were already using 9 to 11 different platforms to run a 12 week program. And then we said, what if we could make that journey better?
So, that's what we do—make it possible to run a remote internship by giving companies the infrastructure, the tools to onboard, manage, and engage all their early talent from the moment they accept their offer to their alumni phase, so you can re-recruit them.
There's a whole suite of features, we live on top of an HRIS system, like a Workday, but we can also live on the side of it. And we've powered over 10,000 work experiences to date.
Karen Mangia
That's a major milestone! You started to reference the importance of technology, which in the world of hiring and candidate experience has an upside and a downside. Say more about your approach to using technology in this context. What can you tell us about how we could use technology for the better with our workforce experiences?
Ahva Sadeghi
With technology, we can eliminate or reduce the tedious tasks that we don't need to do. We can focus on being strategic; we can focus on spending our time building relationships and partnerships and the things that are innately human—being a good mentor, being a great manager, spending time giving quality feedback, spending time practicing different skills and learning new skills. We automate the survey collection process. We automate the friction out of some of the onboarding, things that have already been done manually. They don't need to be done that way. We use technology as a means to our end. So how do we get there a little bit faster? How do we have the right car, the right transportation, so we get to our destination is how we look at it.
Karen Mangia
When we think about this world of DEIB programs and building a more diverse workforce through internships and apprenticeships, some organizations take the mindset that that's a nice-to-have versus a must-have. You’re tracking some real metrics of the impact of this work. Can you share some of those metrics and measurements that matter?
Ahva Sadeghi
You're hitting something that's very close to our heart here at Symba. For an apprentice, we're seeing an exciting impact that an apprentice can stay on board with higher retention of up to five years, compared to someone who is just freshly recruited and hired. An intern is almost twice as likely to stay retained longer term compared to those who haven't done an internship. When we look at interns, most of the data involves a paid internship opportunity. We believe this is because with an intern or an apprentice, it's almost like your alma mater. They're the organization who believed in you first, you almost feel this vested interest in staying longer term. We see some really exciting metrics, and it makes it a very cost effective decision to double down on your early career strategy.
Karen Mangia
There are hiring managers all over the world that will say there aren't enough diverse candidates for me to really achieve the dream of this diverse workforce. What would you say to them?
Ahva Sadeghi
First of all, I would like to have a thoughtful conversation with them as they are being short-sighted. And I would ask them why is that? Where are you recruiting from? Which ponds are you fishing from? I would encourage them to build partnerships with organizations like the ones we work with, like Inroads, that might be able to expand their understanding of where they're going for talent, and mention other nonprofits, other different groups and associations; they can be a part of HBCUs and others because that is not valid. That's just not true that there's not enough diverse talent.
Karen Mangia
“Choose to challenge” sounds like one of your core principles as well as simply asking the question: is that true? Inroads might be a new or unfamiliar organization to some of our readers. Could you say more about that?
Ahva Sadeghi
Inroads is an incredible nonprofit that’s been around for almost 50 years. They have provided a lot of great opportunities for students who might be first generation from underserved communities and backgrounds to tap into paid internships, mentorships, and career learning opportunities. They have a big vision for changing what the C-suite looks like. And they're already doing it, making a really big impact. We're really proud to be working with them.
Karen Mangia
We've been talking and focusing a lot in our conversation about hiring and sourcing diverse candidates — finding the right people, getting them matched with a receptive organization. Once they are hired or placed in an internship or an apprenticeship, what are some of the other barriers to success that we all need to choose to challenge so that the apprentices and interns have a great experience?
Ahva Sadeghi
That's our bread and butter or sweet spot at Symba, because, as I mentioned, we don't do the recruiting, we focus on the experience as soon as they accept the offer. One thing that's really important is not just making sure people get through the door, but how do we make sure they love the experience? One thing that you can choose to challenge is: Do my diverse candidates have the support that they need from mentors who might look like them or from ERG groups who represent them? How are we making sure that they want to stay here? Does leadership look like them? Do they feel like they can see themselves growing into an opportunity and their career trajectory here at this company? I think those are the things we can choose to challenge. One, do we have enough support for them? Two, does our leadership and executive management look like the diversity we really want to embrace here?
Karen Mangia
And to take that a step further, what is one thing that you wish every hiring manager or manager of an intern or apprentice knew? What do we all need to know?
Ahva Sadeghi
I think that we need to know how profound the impact that we have as a manager and a leader is for someone overseeing and supervising an intern or apprentice. I think back to my own internships. I've done six unpaid, as I mentioned, but each one was so profound. And I'm still so close to my managers; I've stayed in touch. I actually had a coffee chat with my first intern manager from the Peace Corps not too long ago.
The impact is so profound because this is the first time someone could be entering the workforce and, potentially, their parents have never had a role like this, or no one in their family has. So, they really lean on you as a leader to take them under their wing and create opportunities for them, show them the way, and take ownership of the opportunity. I think there's really nothing more meaningful than helping and shaping someone's future career path. So, I think that acknowledging the power and the impact that you can have as a manager and stepping up to the plate.
Karen Mangia
We all had to get a first job. We all have had a manager who believed in us and helped us see a bigger vision for our future than we saw for ourselves, and we all want to lead lives that matter. What you're talking about is, there's nothing that matters more than leaving a legacy through the people you leave behind.
As you look toward the future, scaling your business and your impact, what are some of the future of work trends we need to watch so that we maintain the gain and continue to make progress in this critically important area of a diverse workforce?
Ahva Sadeghi
That's a big question that we're all grappling with because work is changing faster than we've ever seen it change. We always go through these periods of revolution where work changes, but right now we're at a hyper extreme change. One thing that I'm incredibly passionate about and our team, along with our partners, is very focused on is skills. How are we ensuring that the next generation is equipped with the right skill set to be successful and to ensure economic opportunity and sustainability long term on their path? I believe that's something that we all need to come to the table about; it's not just about degrees. It's about skills; it's about fair hiring. I would really encourage a call-to-action for a lot of employers to rethink their hiring process and focus on skills — from building these apprenticeship programs to also upskilling and reskilling your current workforce long-term.
Karen Mangia
What are the most important skills that employees and future employees are going to need?
Ahva Sadeghi
Durable skills. I'm on the board of America Succeeds, and durable skills are these innately human skills, skills that maybe ChatGPT won't be able to whip up in a second. They include communication, problem solving, and some interpersonal skills, like conflict resolution, for example. Some of these might be powerful long term and I think they are important for us to harness.
Karen Mangia
These skills help us be better at work; they also help us lead better lives. We could all upskill in our life based on what you're describing there.
Ahva Sadeghi
Yes, and our communities—right? We can continue to create space for healthy dialogue and communication. If you think about how this even equates into politics, disagreements, and so many other factors. If we can improve lines of communication, we can all come to better solutions for our communities.
Karen Mangia
And for many successful people and organizations, it's less about what we start and more about what we stop. What is one question you wish every hiring manager would stop asking?
Ahva Sadeghi
Where did you go to school? I don't think that's necessary anymore.
Karen Mangia
Yes, and it does limit you in some ways because you overlook people who have incredible potential and may not have had earlier access to education. What do you want to celebrate one year from today?
Ahva Sadeghi
One year from today, I will be very excited to be celebrating a new phase within Symba where we have expanded to some of the global markets we want to serve. We're really excited about getting our number from 10,000 to 25,000 by a year from now, and expanding internationally.
Karen Mangia
Well, we're cheering for your success! Ultimately, what do you aspire for your legacy to be from this work?
Ahva Sadeghi
I think that what we talked about at the beginning — caring about service, about giving back and building a community. When I think of Symba, when we came together with our first founders meeting, we said we want this to be bigger than us. We want this to be a call-to-action, a pay-it-forward. We're all on a mission to ensure economic opportunity and success, longer term. So, that's what I'm very excited about—service, giving back, and creating pathways for economic opportunity.
Karen Mangia
From self, to service, to success. I can't think of a better way to head into one of my favorite segments of the interview: our virtual water cooler. I started this segment because people say they miss spontaneously gathering around the watercooler and the chit chat that happens. So, I'm going to ask you five quick questions and you just say the first thing that comes to mind so we can get to know you a little bit better as a person. Are you game for that?
Ahva Sadeghi
Yes, let's go.
Karen Mangia
What time of day do you do your best creative work?
Ahva Sadeghi
I would say 10 a.m.
Karen Mangia
You and I are soul sisters. All right! Speaking of time, imagine every day now has 25 hours, rather than 24. How are you going to spend your extra hour?
Ahva Sadeghi
Yoga. I'm a yoga instructor.
Karen Mangia
If you had to eat one meal every day for the rest of your life, what would it be?
Ahva Sadeghi
Sushi.
Karen Mangia
The zombie apocalypse is coming. Who are three people you want on your team?
Ahva Sadeghi
I think that I would be biased. It would have to be my co-founder, Nikita Gupta, my fiancé, and my sister.
Karen Mangia
And last, how can our audience stay in touch with you and the high-impact work you're doing?
Ahva Sadeghi
I am very active on LinkedIn. They can also email and reach out that way!
Karen Mangia
Thanks to Ahva Sadeghi, co-founder and CEO of Symba for joining us today on Success from Anywhere. Because success is not a destination. Success is not a location. Success is available to anyone, anywhere, anytime.